govcampbell: (Mac is Back!)
[personal profile] govcampbell
Dear Bernie,

im in ur livejournal. postin the day away.

OBAMA 2008!!



P.S. Sign out next time!! :)

ETA: Megan, I'm going to get you for this.

"I will not let the American people be misled by an empty call for change."

Date: 2008-06-17 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Someone has seen this! You can't make it un-happen, Bernie! AHAHAHAHAHA!

Date: 2008-06-18 01:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I have learned a valuable lesson about trust, apparently.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Haha make that two people...

Date: 2008-06-18 01:07 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-06-18 01:08 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-06-18 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
icon love!

Date: 2008-06-18 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: 2008-07-16 07:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but how in good conscience can you support John McCain?

Date: 2008-07-16 07:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I'll be honest, there are things I don't like about him. I'm not really fond of this stance on No Child Left Behind, for one. As a teacher, I'd like to see the whole thing scrapped. But in all, I prefer him to the current Democratic alternative for these reasons:

1. McCain understands and awknowleges that the Republican party has lost its way on financial responsibility. Earmarks and out of control Congressional(and Presidential) spending is among the primary reasons public trust in government has erroded. (Yes, the Keating Five scandal is in his background. But I've always been of the belief that people change, and their experiances change them. His conduct since then hasn't had an issue, so maybe he learned a lesson.)

2. This relates to number 1, but anyone who wants to keep more of my money in my pocket is good in my book. As the quote goes: government is not the solution to the problem, government is the problem.

3. Socialized medicine scares the hell out of me, because of the costs and the ineffectivness. Look at the horror stories in Great Britain and Canada. Does health care work in the US? Not always, it needs help. Is it better than the others? Hell, yes. McCain's plan makes sense.

4. I would feel safter knowing someone who is trained for crisis is in the Oval Office. Not to go all "3:00 am ad", but really, a first term Senator who's only a few years removed from the State Senate? Not enough experiance for me.

5. I think the Democrat's foreign policy is naive and misguided. Was the war in Iraq right? Probably not. Is immediate withdrawal the answer? No. Ask the British how immediate withdrawal went at Dunkrik. We need a plan for an orderly turn over of responibilites to the Iraqi military. If we end up with a mininmal military presence in Iraq for the next 50-60 years, that doesn't bother me. We've been Korea that long and noboy's up in arms about that. the difference is there not being killed in Korea. We need someone who won't panic, and will guide us through to that next stage, where the killing stops.

5. America should never negotiate with Iran. Period. I don't want to see another war, certainly, but I think that the idea that somehow talking to them is going to help is stupid. Iran, is, without a doubt, the most dangerous country in the world. (Frankly, I think we invaded the wrong country in 2002, but that's just me.) I'm suprised the Israeli military gets any sleep at all these days, with the way Iran's been rattling the saber. Iran only understands strength, not words.

6. McCain recognizes that our energy policy is national sercurity. While I'm not 100% sure nuclear is the way to go, it's a start, and his free market approach is more likely to make a difference than government regulations.

That all being said, keep in mind, much of this is in relation to the Democratic alternatives. If the Dems had nominated somebody, like say, Wesley Clark or Joe Liberman, I might have been tempted to vote the other way.

at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I prefer him to the current Democratic alternative for these reasons:

That isn't what I asked. I didn't ask why you -opposed- Obama, I asked how you could -support- McCain. I'll take it as read that you meant to imply an argument from consequences... ie, "I must support McCain because I believe the consequences of Obama would be worse," etc.

Also, statements 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 seem to be empirically false.

5' begins as a matter of opinion, then indicates a willingness to violate the UN Charter, which would seem to also violate the Constitution and constitute war crimes along the lines of the definitions established at the Nuremberg trial by the US Prosecutor.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
You are correct, I did not make myself clear. My apologies. I like Senator McCain as a human being, I think he's a brave man, who has suffered for his country with little or no complaint. I believe him to be honest and a patriot. Those are reasons I support him. I also agree with more of Senator McCain's policies than I disagree with.

As for the rest, well, you did ask. I recognize the fact that we'll never see eye to eye on much of anything, so I'm content to continue disagreeing with you.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
It isn't just a matter of seeing eye to eye... Of your seven bullets, one was a war crime and the other six are false.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
1. It is a matter of public record that McCain opposes earmarks and wasteful Congressional spending.

2. McCain orginally opposed the Bush tax cuts, yes, but he voted to make them permanent, and has not proposed any tax increases in his campaign.

3. There are ample news items and stories from Britain and Canada concerning people waiting months for proper medical care.

4. Senator Obama's career is a matter of public record. He IS a first term Senator, he WAS a State Sentor prior.

5. I suppose this one is more of an opinion, but it is true that we have had troops in Korea for some time. There have been incidents, between troops and Korean civilians, accidents happen, as well as the more tragic aspects of everyday life (murder, rape, etc), but it's not something that gets a lot of negative attention in the US.

6. Is it a war crime to be willing to go to war for an ally? I was, perhaps being flip when I suggested we invaded the wrong country. I believe that Iran will provide us with any necessary causus beli, probably within 5 years, if left diplomatically unchecked.

7. McCain's support for nuclear power is matter of public record, check his speeches. He has also linked our energy policy with national security in the same speeches. And free market solutions have a track record of better results than government regulation.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
1) McCain understands and awknowleges that the Republican party has lost its way on financial responsibility

His proposed budget doesn't reflect this.

2) You are not effected by the Bush tax cuts, assuming my footnote is correct.

3) Obama doesn't support socialized medicine. If he did, I might support him.

Given relative levels of spending, France's system would be a more apt comparison. Your follow-up statement is true, but not relevant. Anecdotes are not evidence. International studies of healthcare systems place us behind dozens of nations with socialized medicine, and this is reflected in (amongst a great many other things) our lower life expectancies.

The inefficiencies of our public health care system result in a competitive disadvantage for American industry.

4) McCain has no relevant experience, as Clark has pointed out. By this metric, only Govenors of large states should be eligible for President. Relevant past Presidents with identical experience coming from Illinois? Lincoln. (But I'm not -for- Obama, and I'm not really asking you to be.) Hell, McCain is still wrong about the Vietnam War, last time I checked.

5) The Democrats are not in favor of immediate withdrawal... in fact, Obama is shifting his position on this as we speak. (Another reason I don't support him.) The minimum figures cited has been a year, and he is presently saying 16 months. Even then, what they're really talking about is probably more akin to our present status in Korea (a draw-down, not a pull-out).

6) Yes, that would still be a war crime, but we've already committed acts of aggression against Iran... including funding terrorists. We've provided them with the same Cassus Belli that we used against Afghanistan. We've kidnapped their citizens, which was enough for the US in 1812. We've threatened them with military force, which is -also- a war crime. (Obama has -also- threatened Iran with military force.)

7) The free market approach to energy policy gave us Enron. Obama is also aware that energy policy and national security are related, and alternatives such as solar and wind power are now a more affordable and immediate solution to our energy needs. It isn't a matter of "nuclear or nothing" any more.

All of that said, my conclusion that this statement was false was based on a mis-reading of your initial point... I thought you were suggesting that you felt Obama wasn't aware that energy policy was important or related to national security, rather than taking a pro-nuke stance as a necessary component to the above. Really, though... given all of the costs involved, avowed capitalists shouldn't be talking up nuclear power.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

on 3:

Also, your anecdotes leave out the very significant fraction of uninsured Americans who can't get health care ever, let alone in a few months.

on 6:

If we tell Israel not to start a fight, they won't. If we don't start a fight with Iran (which, basically, we've already done), they won't start one with us.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-16 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
addenda to the addenda

2: you are not positively impacted by the Bush tax cuts.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 12:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Re 6:

But Iran might attack Israel on it's own. Since the destruction of that state is an avowed goal of Iran's foreign policy.

But the root of the question is, McCain may not be Winston Churchill, but Obama, and the Democratic party in general, remind me very strongly of Neville Chamberlin.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
We have already funded terrorists in Iran. Israel is our client state.

Obama has made claims to the contrary.

And it is still a war crime. You know... sufficient justification for _France_ to nuke us.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
4. I'll Grant you Lincoln,(see what I did there, I made a funny...), and it is true some men do have greatness thrust upon them. I'm not sure I see it with Obama. And presumably, our Naval Academy provides some leadership training. And experaince, in years, counts for some.

I think what all this boils down to is you ask me how in good conscience I can support McCain? Because I'm a realist. I know that you don't care for either, and will probably vote for somebody else entirely, and I admire your idealism for that. But I cannot, in good conscience, vote for an "ideologically pure" candidate, who has no chance of winning, especially seeing as I live in a swing state, and I'd rather get someone I agree with on some items, than get someone I disagree with on many item. For you, it's different. Mass is going to go Dem, even if the Democrats nominated the corpse of Al Smith. If I lived in a state that was going to go one way or the other, with no chance of swinging, I might feel differently.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Okay, how many years do I have to torture you until you become a lawyer? A doctor? A carpenter?

How many years do you have to teach history before you're qualified to teach quantum physics?

Sitting in the Senate is not a qualification to be President, for one term or ten terms.

You haven't listed a single reason to support McCain which isn't either factually wrong or a war crime... unless you're voting for him because he'll start a war which will cripple our access to oil and because he'll build nuclear power plants afterwards.

It is as if I said you should vote for Obama because McCain eats babies.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
McCain opposes Congressional earmarks. He opposes wasteful spending. He's pledged to keep my taxes low. I agree with his plans for energy policy, including the free market approach. You may say it won't work, but philosophically, I prefer free market solutions to government regulations. I agree with his statements that we need to finish the job in Iraq, and remain strong in the face of agression. I agree with what he says more often than I disagree with it. Those are reasons I'm voting for McCain. I am a fiscal conservative, national security proponent, small government advocate, states rightist, ruralist from New Hampshire. McCain is the best (realistic) fit for my views.

Re: at your request, I'll piss off, but...

Date: 2008-07-17 06:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
McCain is not pledged to keep YOUR taxes low.

No Republican in your lifetime has lowered taxes on your social class, and John McCain's proposed budget won't either. Nor is it balanced, as there is a certain costly war associated with it.

I know the rich have it really rough, but they don't need your pity.

How can an aggressor remain strong in the face of aggression?

How can starting wars enhance our national security? How can threatening other nations enhance our national security?

If you want smaller government and fiscal conservatism, vote for Obama. If you want fascism and villainy that will ring through the ages, vote for McCain. If you discover progressive taxation, let me know, and if you ever get around to reading what Adam Smith had to say about corporations...


Date: 2008-07-17 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

... do you make over 2.9 million in income?

Re: taxes

Date: 2008-07-17 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Not me personally, but my family might. Didn't Kadath tell you my family owns a golf course?

Re: taxes

Date: 2008-07-17 10:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Well then, I'm sorry to hear that.

health care

Date: 2008-07-17 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

"The United States fails on most measures of health care quality, with Americans waiting longer to see doctors and more likely to die of preventable or treatable illnesses than people in other industrialized countries, a report released on Thursday said."

"Americans squander money on wasteful administrative costs, illnesses caused by medical error and inefficient use of time, the report from the nonprofit Commonwealth Fund concluded."


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